Email Marketing Best Practices

Note: This is a tran­script of an episode about Email Mar­ket­ing from PSM — Pro­fes­sion­al Ser­vices Mar­ket­ing Show pod­cast. Hosts David Lecours and Josh Miles share email mar­ket­ing best prac­tices. Click here to lis­ten to the episode.

PSM: Professional Services Marketing

Episode 104 on Email Marketing

Josh: Hel­lo and wel­come to PSM show. If it’s about pro­fes­sion­al ser­vices mar­ket­ing, we’ll be cov­er­ing it here. I’m Josh Miles and this is episode 104 on Email Mar­ket­ing for Fri­day, Novem­ber 17, 2017. You know, tomor­row is my birth­day and wel­come to the show David.

David: Hey, hap­py birth­day.

Josh: Thank you.

David: In that hon­or, I’m crack­ing open a beer. Oh, can you hear that?

Josh: That sounds like birth­day good­ness. I’m actu­al­ly enjoy­ing a lit­tle bit of Bour­bon here myself, cel­e­brat­ing a lit­tle ear­ly.

David: Nice. This is a Stone Rip­per, a San Diego Pale Ale.

Josh: Excel­lent.

David: Cheers.

Josh: Sam­pling the Wood­ford Reserve here today. Also quite tasty. Today’s episode is actu­al­ly not about bev­er­ages but it is about one of my favorite top­ics, which is email mar­ket­ing.

David: Yeah. Josh, you know, I’ve heard you say that this is the most under-appre­ci­at­ed mar­ket­ing chan­nel and that begs the ques­tion, why?

Josh: I think there’s a lot of rea­sons, not the least of which, depend­ing on the tool that you use, email mar­ket­ing can actu­al­ly be the least expen­sive, espe­cial­ly if your firm is doing email in-house and pulling togeth­er email newslet­ters. There’s cer­tain­ly the time that goes into it. One of the rea­sons we like it is because it can be so tar­get­ed. You’re obvi­ous­ly build­ing your list and send­ing it exact­ly to the peo­ple that you want to receive it. It’s more like­ly to be seen and you can actu­al­ly know who has looked at it.

You can get a lit­tle bit big broth­er with it of course, and get into the details and know exact­ly who clicked on it and who for­ward­ed it and who clicked on what. In effect, your audi­ence if giv­ing you that per­mis­sion. They’re sign­ing up for your list, pre­sum­ably you’re not spam­ming them. Hope­ful­ly nobody’s doing that. If you are, we’ll get into that a lit­tle bit lat­er. That com­bi­na­tion of low cost and tar­get­ed and the abil­i­ty to know who’s look­ing at it and send­ing it to only peo­ple who want it, it’s kind of one of the clos­est things we have to sil­ver bul­let in mar­ket­ing today.

David: Yeah. I think that’s so true. The idea that it is so tar­get­ed is so key. Many mar­ket­ing chan­nels, whether it’s tra­di­tion­al adver­tis­ing or direct mail, you just don’t know if some­body has seen it because if it’s just an ad, you’re hop­ing that they pick up the pub­li­ca­tion that you’ve placed that ad-buy in. Where­as, with email mar­ket­ing, you can’t guar­an­tee that somebody’s going to open and click on your email but there’s a pret­ty good chance that they’re going to at least see it. You’re going to have a bet­ter oppor­tu­ni­ty for some­body see­ing your mes­sage than so many oth­er media.

That inti­ma­cy of know­ing exact­ly who you’re tar­get­ing and send­ing some­thing to them is pret­ty unri­valed.

Josh: There’s also the, as you men­tioned, the vis­i­bil­i­ty piece. Even if peo­ple aren’t open­ing the email, even if they’re triag­ing it and see­ing it in the inbox and they aren’t open­ing every­one, they’re just delet­ing it as it comes in, they’re still get­ting that brand expose. I think about some of the retail brands that I inter­act with. I don’t want to buy some­thing from J Crew or Bed, Bath and Beyond or who­ev­er else I’m get­ting these occa­sion­al emails from but I see them in my inbox all the time so that brand expo­sure is there pret­ty fre­quent­ly.

David: Yeah. I think we know that, in our busi­ness, the pro­fes­sion­al ser­vice mar­keters, the sales cycle is long. Being front of mind with some­body is so key. Hav­ing a tar­get­ed cam­paign where you put that prospec­tive buy­er on a drip of use­ful con­tent, will help you rise to the front of mind or the top of requests for pro­pos­al list when your cus­tomer moves in the buy­ing cycle to actu­al­ly have a project and ready to pur­chase. I think that is so key.

Josh: We talked a lit­tle bit about, obvi­ous­ly, you’re going to get a lit­tle bit of vis­i­bil­i­ty in the inbox even if some­body does inter­act with the email. Maybe we could talk about some of the ways to help opti­mize get­ting peo­ple to read that email and I think one of the ones I’d love to hear your thoughts on is what role the sub­ject line plays in get­ting some­one to open that email.

David: It’s crit­i­cal. You can’t over­state this. If some­body doesn’t open your email, they don’t real­ly absorb your mes­sage and the only way they’re going to open the email is if the sub­ject line is com­pelling. I’m imag­in­ing open­ing my email ser­vice provider, I hap­pen to use Mac Mail but it could be Gmail or what­ev­er. Doesn’t mat­ter. You’ve got a sea of new emails. They’re all bold, indi­cat­ing that they haven’t been read. You get this lit­tle dread­ful feel­ing in your stom­ach about hav­ing to go through all of these dif­fer­ent emails.

Josh: That was lit­er­al­ly me this morn­ing. Why are there so many emails in my inbox?

David: Right. Yeah. You’ve got to deal with most of them. Know­ing that, you’re com­pet­ing with projects and crit­i­cal emails from peo­ple on your staff so you’ve got to have an email sub­ject line, because that’s the only thing peo­ple see, that is in fact, com­pelling and it needs to be well writ­ten, it needs to peak somebody’s inter­est. There’s a lot of tech­niques to do this whether it’s ask­ing a com­pelling ques­tion, hav­ing a thought-pro­vok­ing or provoca­tive mes­sage. I always sug­gest to clients that, if they’re look­ing for inspi­ra­tion for writ­ing great email head­lines, go to the super­mar­ket and look at the tabloids. Look at the head­lines that you’re see­ing pop­ping off the list.

I’m not rec­om­mend­ing that you write an arti­cle about Brad Pitt’s dat­ing habits or some­thing like that but, look at the way they craft those mes­sages because they’re guar­an­teed to stand out on a news­stand. The tech­niques they use, things like sev­en tips for X, Y, and Z or, have you ever thought of A, B, and C? Those are great tech­niques.

Josh: The third one will blow your mind.

David: There you go.

Josh: The sub­ject lines, I think, are def­i­nite­ly pow­er­ful ways to get your atten­tion and then, you know, most email pro­grams also will have that pre­view text, is what I typ­i­cal­ly call it, but that next line of text that’s the un-bold­ed copy which is some­times, a total­ly squan­dered oppor­tu­ni­ty when you open up the email and you see that that first line says, “Email not ren­der­ing. View it in a brows­er.” That kind of default text is the first thing you see but we’ll get into some of the dif­fer­ent email pro­grams here in a sec­ond but things like Mail Chimp will allow you to enter that pre­view text in pur­pose­ful­ly so it’s not just pulling the default mes­sage.

David: Yes. Right. Right. Typ­i­cal­ly, the default is the first lines in your actu­al email but you have the abil­i­ty to cre­ate, some peo­ple call it an excerpt or a syn­op­sis and that’s anoth­er great way that your email is com­pelling. First read sub­ject line, sec­ond read is what­ev­er that sum­ma­ry easy. Just some real prac­ti­cal tips; some­where between 35 and 55 char­ac­ters, which ends up being about six to ten words for the sub­ject line so it fits with­in the win­dow of view with­in the email.

Josh: Yeah because you’re not prob­a­bly, tech­ni­cal­ly lim­it­ed by the num­ber of words or char­ac­ters but nobody’s ever going to see those beyond the six to ten words, you’re not going to be able to read it any­more.

David: Yeah. Don’t put your whole entire email mes­sage, in the sub­ject line. It’s not a way to game the sys­tem.

Josh: I feel like there are some peo­ple who use the sub­ject line almost like text mes­sag­ing. They just send you the sub­ject line email with an emp­ty con­tent.

David: Yeah. Noth­ing else. I’ve used that tech­nique so I’m guilty. Josh, there’s some­thing I noticed recent­ly. The rise in pop­u­lar­i­ty of emo­jis. It may be because peo­ple are send­ing emails from their phone and the emo­ji cul­ture is a lit­tle bit more promi­nent with­in mobile. How do you feel stick­ing an emo­ji in the sub­ject line? You’ve got this sea of email text for sub­ject lines and an emo­ji pops out? Is it pro­fes­sion­al? I don’t know. I have mixed feel­ings. What do you think?

Josh: I feel like the under­ly­ing theme with email is, is with great pow­er comes great respon­si­bil­i­ty. Most peo­ple just don’t behave very respon­si­bly on the web when it comes to email mar­ket­ing. It’s the thing that I feel that peo­ple have abused more than any­thing. The rea­son we have spam laws is that peo­ple spam you. I think emo­jis are maybe not up there with spam but cer­tain­ly, every email doesn’t war­rant using emo­ji and the pro­fes­sion­al ser­vices space.

David: No.

Josh: Sure, there are things like open hous­es or par­ties or golf out­ings or net­work­ing oppor­tu­ni­ties and maybe those are good places to maybe work in a lit­tle emo­ji here and there but cer­tain­ly not every mes­sage. What’s your take on that?

David: I like that. I think using it spar­ing­ly. There are some cute emo­jis that you can uti­lize in a wit­ty way. Whether it rela­tions to the lit­er­al­ly or metaphor­i­cal­ly, to the sub­ject line, that can be kind of fun. Yeah. I think if it becomes the norm, then it’s not unique, it’s not spe­cial and peo­ple will tire of it.

Josh: Who knew that we would have so much to say about emails and we are lit­er­al­ly, just through the sub­ject line at this point? This is one of those that may seem like, “How do you even change this?” Actu­al­ly, the sender itself could be a fac­tor to whether you open this email or not. Tell us about why that is.

David: Yeah. I’m glad you brought that up. When you’re scan­ning, the first thing you’ll look at is … Well, actu­al­ly, I’m not even sure. I sort of go back and forth between look­ing at the sub­ject line and look­ing at who sent it. Both are going to give me a clue, you men­tioned triage, in terms of the pri­or­i­ty that I need to respond to that email. My eye­ball prob­a­bly goes back and forth. I put one eye on sub­ject line and maybe I use the oth­er eye to look at sender and I’m instant­ly judg­ing whether or not I’m going to open that email.

The point here is that I strong­ly believe that the sender needs to be an actu­al per­son that you have this rela­tion­ship with. Now, you may not have met that per­son but I think it needs to come from you, an actu­al per­son or some­body in the com­pa­ny that is per­haps a fig­ure­head that peo­ple know. What I dis­cour­age peo­ple from doing is just putting, the X, Y, Z first or B&C con­sult­ing because that just feels instant­ly like it’s going to be some sort of gener­ic cor­po­rate, not very com­pelling, per­son­al email.

It seems small but again, you’ve got mil­lisec­onds to let the view­er know; are you trust­wor­thy? Are you offer­ing some­thing wor­thy? Most like­ly, that comes from a per­son, not a com­pa­ny. Your thoughts?

Josh: Let me see if I’ve got this straight. We can say it’s from XYZ Corp and the sub­ject line is Novem­ber email.

David: Yeah. Right. That tells me-

Josh: There’s noth­ing less inter­est­ing than the big cor­po­rate giants send­ing me their Novem­ber newslet­ter.

David: Yes. Absolute­ly. Right. I don’t want to read that. It’s going direct­ly into trash. The oth­er option is to get an email from Josh Miles and say­ing, “Guess who we just hired at Miles Hern­don?” I know it’s com­ing from you. I have a rela­tion­ship with you. The head­line is com­pelling. I’m much more apt to click on that.

Josh: I love the very con­ver­sa­tion­al nature of your very the­o­ret­ic sub­ject line of, “Guess who we just hired?” That’s so much more human than, “A press release E sound­ing. Miles is proud to announce the new devel­op­er of busi­ness devel­op­ment.” I’d rather read the email that says, “Guess who we just hired?”

David: Yeah.

Josh: I don’t know. Let me guess.

David: I love you said that. That’s a great tech­nique. If your sub­ject line doesn’t sound con­ver­sa­tion­al and lit­er­al­ly, test it by pos­ing the ques­tion or stay­ing the state­ment to some­body else and if they say, “Oh no, that’s cor­po­rate speak,” speak human. Be a human being and have empa­thy and be com­pelling. Don’t sound like a cor­po­rate automa­ton, if that’s even a word.

Josh: It is if we use it a few more times.

David: That’s right.

Josh: I think the oth­er thing to keep in mind for sender is, for most pro­grams, you’re going to have the option of includ­ing both, the sender name and the sender email so you’ve got the oppor­tu­ni­ty to, depend­ing on how your email pref­er­ences are set, you either see those list­ed as names, so you see that it’s from David Lecours, or you see that it’s from david@lecoursdesign.com but those are both things to think about because, when you’re send­ing through an email ser­vice provider and piece of soft­ware, you’re not rel­e­gat­ed to just send­ing from, “your email address” it can be from any­body as long as that email address is val­i­dat­ed through the sys­tem.

David: There might be a rea­son to break this rule. Let’s say your email address is show­ing but let’s say you’re send­ing out some sort of fun, time­ly thing. In the last episode, we talked about hol­i­day mes­sages and gen­er­al­ly, we’re not a fan of gener­ic hol­i­day mes­sages but let’s just say for exam­ple, you were send­ing a hol­i­day mes­sage and to break things up a lit­tle you could say, “Elf from the North Pole,” or, “Elf from XYZ Corp,” just to pro­vide a lit­tle bit of vari­ety or maybe there’s a rela­tion­ship between the sender, name and the sub­ject mat­ter.

I think as a gen­er­al rule, don’t try to be over­ly cre­ative and wit­ty. Save that for the con­tent and the body of the email, which I think we might want to talk about next.

Josh: Yeah. Let’s get to that then.

David: That was my seg­way, did you notice that?

Josh: It was pret­ty sub­tle. I appre­ci­at­ed that.

David: All right. You’ve deter­mined your sub­ject line. You’ve deter­mined your sender, now you’ve got to write the con­tent. Josh, any good rules for devel­op­ing con­tent of an email, with­out get­ting too much into con­tent mar­ket­ing, which is a total­ly sep­a­rate sub­ject? In terms of length or top­ic, what do you do in terms of cre­at­ing this con­tent of the email?

Josh: This may be sort of cheat­ing but I’ve always enjoyed writ­ing the email inside the con­text of the tem­plate that I’m going to be using so that I can real­ly see. It’s so easy if you just start writ­ing in Word or a text edi­tor, to write some­thing lengthy, even if you don’t feel like it’s get­ting that way and I think email is one of those things, it’s much eas­i­er to visu­al­ly scan the impor­tant parts. Email writ­ing and blog writ­ing are sim­i­lar in that regard. Hav­ing lots of small, bite-sized pieces, allows your eyes to just kind of glance over it and see the impor­tant parts that pop out, whether you’ve got one big image at the top or a cou­ple lit­tle thumb­nails through­out but you know.

Even if it’s not lit­er­al­ly bul­let points, just writ­ing in lit­tle chunks I think is a lit­tle bit eas­i­er to digest than open­ing up your inbox and being greet­ed with a wall of text. I think very few peo­ple are look­ing for that in an email. What would you add to that?

David: Yeah. That’s so true. I like digestible chunks of con­tent. Think of it sort of, as web copy where it’s not long-form nar­ra­tion but it’s these small­er chunks that some­body can scan and see a head­line and then a lit­tle bit of copy, a cou­ple sen­tences. Anoth­er head­line, anoth­er cou­ple sen­tences so it doesn’t feel like work. It feels joy­ful to be able to read and learn the great insight that you’re pro­vid­ing. That reminds me of the next thing.

With­in the con­tent, you want to make sure that you’re offer­ing valu­able infor­ma­tion that will make your clients’ work bet­ter. I think peo­ple a lot of times, fall into the trap and the mis­take that I see com­mon­ly made by pro­fes­sion­al ser­vices forums is they, par­don my pot­ty humor but, they “we” all over them­selves. Do you know what I’m talk­ing about there Josh?

Josh: I think that’s when they say, we this and we that and we, we, we.

David: Yes. Exact­ly. You can share that joke with your five-year-old son. Yeah. You don’t want to we all over your­self.

Josh: Every­body likes dad jokes.

David: Yeah. It doesn’t. It’s not very inter­est­ing. It’s like a rela­tion­ship with some­body who talks only about them­selves and doesn’t offer any­thing of val­ue. I kind of like to think of it like this 6:1 ratio. I’ve heard as much as 10:1 where you’re offer­ing con­tent that’s valu­able to your client, use­ful tips for mak­ing them smarter, faster bet­ter and then that affords you that lat­i­tude, so six of those, to one we con­tent.

We con­tent would be the equiv­a­lent of a project we just won, we just hired this key new hire, we just won this award. I get so much email from firms in our space and they just are con­stant­ly … it feels like you’re just brag­ging the whole time.

Josh: Right.

David: What am I sup­posed to do with that? Okay. Great. I’m proud but it just doesn’t have the res­o­nance and last­ing pow­er of offer­ing some­thing of val­ue.

Josh: I think even, the soft­er side of we is when you’re shar­ing cul­ture or shar­ing peo­ple and when it feels con­ver­sa­tion­al or sto­ry-like. I know story’s an impor­tant word for you too David. When I feel like some­body is telling me some­thing that I’m excit­ed to hear about, it’s a lot dif­fer­ent, even if it is all about … if it’s a fun, a light, or inter­est­ing or human sided sto­ry, that makes me a lot more inter­est­ed to dig into it than it does when it’s just announc­ing that next project or that new hire.

David: Right. Doesn’t every­body real­ly think their own con­tent is inter­est­ing? How do you get to that sort of human part? I think you do it well. I’m just curi­ous if we can offer some tips.

Josh: Yeah. I think when it real­ly sounds con­ver­sa­tion­al. One of the tips that I’ve heard for blog­ging that I’ve tried to apply to email when­ev­er pos­si­ble is think­ing about, what if you were just writ­ing to one per­son? I think some­times it’s help­ful to think exact­ly, lit­er­al­ly one per­son. It can be an imag­i­nary per­son. Okay, I’m going to write to this mar­ket­ing man­ag­er and she has X years of expe­ri­ence in the busi­ness and she deals with these kinds of prob­lems and she wants to learn one, two, and three, and her life would just be eas­i­er if she could just fig­ure out these things.

If I just think about, I’m always writ­ing to her, what would my next mes­sage be to her if I was try­ing to encour­age her along or try­ing to help her out or teach her some­thing? I think that real­ly changes the tone of the email and makes it kind of nat­u­ral­ly con­ver­sa­tion­al and friend­lier. It’s kind of speak­ing to an audi­ence. When you pick some­body out in the audi­ence and you make eye con­tact with them, I think it’s that same thing with the email.

When you have writ­ten that feel­ing like you’ve writ­ten to one per­son, every­body who reads that says, “Oh, they were writ­ing to me. This is a great email.”

David: Yeah. Is that amaz­ing? Yeah. Absolute­ly. For sure.

Josh: It’s much more engag­ing email to read that kind of mes­sage I think.

David: Total­ly. One idea that our stu­dio audi­ence can think about is, just keep lis­ten­ing, lis­ten­ing to your clients and what are the prob­lems that they’re con­sis­tent­ly fac­ing? Those can be great top­ics. By the same token, what are the answers that you con­sis­tent­ly give? That’s great fod­der for email copy. Of course, you want that copy to live on your blog so that it has a life well beyond just the email. Maybe we could tran­si­tion a lit­tle bit into that rela­tion­ship between email and a blog. I know there’s a cou­ple dif­fer­ent schools of thought.

One is, have the entire mes­sage in the body of the email. Anoth­er one is, send just a teas­er with­in the body of the email to encour­age the user to click from the email, onto your turf, which is now the web­site, own-able media. Do you have any pref­er­ence there Josh?

Josh: Well, inter­est­ing­ly enough, I have ful­ly sub­scribed to both schools of thought at one point or anoth­er in hopes of keep­ing my emails short back when, this was kind of the ear­ly days of email for my firm, 2005, 2006. We were just exper­i­ment­ing with this thing called email mar­ket­ing. We would do these very we focused and it was always like, “Here’s the lat­est project. Here’s the thing that we just won. Here’s an award. Here’s a client that did some­thing that was in the news.” We would have a one lin­er about that project and, “Click here to read more.” The next client, “Click here to read more.” The next client, and shock­ing, very few peo­ple clicked through unless it was a face or a real­ly cool image, then they would click on the images or the faces but they wouldn’t click on the “read more” as much.

David: Right.

Josh: Fast for­ward to 2013 or ’14, we start­ed send­ing out these emails that were very con­ver­sa­tion­al and we start­ed treat­ing it the oppo­site. We start­ed real­ly build­ing up our email list and sub­scriber list from our blog. We were pulling in email from the web­site as opposed to pre­vi­ous­ly, we were try­ing to send our email sub­scribers back to the web. In this case, when we flipped it around, we real­ly tried to keep all of the con­ver­sa­tion, lit­er­al­ly, in the inbox.

We would end a lot of our mes­sages with a ques­tion or a chal­lenge or some­thing to pro­voke thought. We’d say things like, “Tell us about a time when you had some­thing like this. What has your biggest chal­lenge been in this area? Share an idea with us. Do you love this idea or hate it?” Then we’d always end it with, “Hit reply and let us know.” When you have that per­son­al email address as the send­ing email and they hit reply, it lit­er­al­ly just comes back to our inbox.

It was a real­ly cool way. Obvi­ous­ly, it was a small­er num­ber of sub­scribers who would actu­al­ly do that but the ones who did would real­ize, “Oh, he’s actu­al­ly send­ing and respond­ing to these emails.” It real­ly extends that per­son­al rela­tion­ship piece of it.

David: Right. It felt like you were there for some­body if they had a ques­tion or want­ed to respond right with­in the email.

Josh: Yeah. Obvi­ous­ly, it feels real­ly acces­si­ble when you get an email from some­body and you hit reply and then they write back to you. It’s kind of mind blow­ing. Peter Shankman’s anoth­er mar­ket­ing guy out there. I’ve had a very sim­i­lar expe­ri­ence with him recent­ly. He was a speak­er at a region­al con­fer­ence ear­li­er this year and I sub­scribed to his list and hit reply to the auto-thanks for sign­ing up and told him what I liked about his talk.

He wrote back and had very spe­cif­ic things to that talk in response so I knew it was him or some­one who was very well trained in what was going on in his show. That was pret­ty cool.

David: It wasn’t a bot.

Josh: That’s right. Prob­a­bly not a bot. Would have been a real­ly good bot if it were.

David: Right.

Josh: What do you think about includ­ing calls to action inside of an email or but­tons or that idea of read more? How often are you see­ing that suc­cess­ful or how would you advise firms to han­dle those?

David: Right. My exam­ple is my own in that I’ve been track­ing my firm as a pro­fes­sion­al ser­vices firm. Our list is 1,539 peo­ple and we’ve done some A/B test­ing. I was design­ing an email and want­ed to test whether a ful­ly designed email that uti­lizes some of the bells and whis­tles that these email ser­vices pro­vide ver­sus just plain text email with a link. I did it two dif­fer­ent times.

In both cas­es, the plain text emails had … I’ll just give you the num­bers. 17.2% opened for designed ver­sus 23.5% for the plain text. For the sec­ond time, it was 25.2% opened for the design and 30.3% opened for the plain text. In both cas­es, the plain text email had a high­er open rate and a high­er click through rate.

Josh: Isn’t that inter­est­ing.

David: That may just be the audi­ence. I think that there’s also some con­cerns that when you include a lot of graph­ics and pic­tures, that it could get flagged as poten­tial­ly spam and that might not reach your intend­ed user, in which case, your open rates would be low­er. Yeah. Late­ly, my approach has been sim­ple plain text with a link because I do want to get them over to the site where hope­ful­ly, they can stum­ble upon oth­er arti­cles and if they’re inter­est­ed in ser­vices, they can learn about that. My goal is to get them to the site.

Yeah. I think the key is just know­ing what your plan is and know­ing how you’re going to do it. There isn’t one right way to do it but prob­a­bly the right answer is just to know what you’re doing and be inten­tion­al about it so that you can exe­cute on that.

Josh: Dude, I feel like we’ve gone through a lot of real­ly cool stuff on emails so far but we’ve got so much left to go here. Maybe we should actu­al­ly split this up into a sec­ond episode and release this as a lit­tle bonus for every­body. What do you think about that?

David: Yeah. I think that’s great. We have been pub­lish­ing our episodes every oth­er week and this is such a hot top­ic and I’m into it, I want to keep going. Let’s wrap up for now. Let’s call each oth­er in a week and do part two of this and then we’ll release them in sub­se­quent weeks so peo­ple will just only have to wait one week. Today is Novem­ber 17th, we’ll release the next one on the 24th. Does that sound good?

Josh: Yeah. That sounds good.

Episode 105 on Email Marketing

Josh Miles: Yeah. Some­times I just love nerd­ing out on nerdy stuff, and e-mail mar­ket­ing is def­i­nite­ly one of those kind of nerdy top­ics. But as we talked about in episode 104, when it comes to e-mail mar­ket­ing with great pow­er comes great respon­si­bil­i­ty. I’m excit­ed. If you haven’t lis­tened to episode 104 yet, please go back and do that because David and I cov­ered the nit­ty grit­ty of why e-mail is a great tool in pro­fes­sion­al ser­vices, bet­ter ways to look at sub­ject lines and the impor­tance of those, and the sender. We real­ly just start­ed dig­ging into the actu­al con­tent of the e-mail itself. Today, I’m think we’re just going to pick up in the area of build­ing your list. David, what are some of the good ways to build your list when it comes to e-mail mar­ket­ing?

David Lecours: I think you have two choic­es. One is build it organ­i­cal­ly, which means adding peo­ple in an opt-in kind of man­ner. You meet some­body, you ask them either in-per­son or via e-mail, “Hey, can I add you to my mail­ing list?” Or anoth­er way of organ­ic build­ing is that they go to your site, they fill out a call-to-action form and they give you per­mis­sion to send them infor­ma­tion. They’ve opt­ed-in to your list. That would be organ­ic.

The oth­er method is pur­chas­ing a list. There are sell­ers of lists out there and you can buy e-mail address­es and build your list that way. Both have pros and cons, but this is a bit of a num­bers game. You want to have as big a tar­get­ed list as you can. You don’t want num­bers for the sake of ego. You real­ly want peo­ple that are prospec­tive clients, now or in the future, so it’s not just about get­ting your cousin in to your list, or your whole fam­i­ly. It’s hav­ing tar­get­ed mem­bers.

Those are the two approach­es. I have explored pur­chas­ing a list, but it didn’t make sense. I wasn’t con­vinced that the list was qual­i­ty. I knew they were going to give me a bunch of names and e-mail address­es, I just wasn’t con­vinced that they were going to be tar­get­ed enough. I’m a super tar­get­ed mar­keter and my firm is exclu­sive­ly focused on the archi­tec­ture, engi­neer­ing, con­struc­tion indus­try. A lot of these list sell­ers are build­ing their lists based on adver­tis­ing buys, and archi­tec­ture, engi­neer­ing, con­struc­tion doesn’t do a lot of ad buys, so like I said, I wasn’t con­vinced that the list was going to be valu­able.

I may have not done enough research, but how about you, Josh? Where do you sit on this organ­ic ver­sus pur­chas­ing list?

Josh Miles: Yeah, we talked a lit­tle bit about this on the last episode. Again, if you haven’t lis­tened to 104, go back and do that, but kind of in the ear­ly days of mar­ket­ing for us, we were doing the busi­ness card thing. Any time we had an intern, one of their week­ly tasks would be to enter all of my busi­ness cards into our e-mail mar­ket­ing pro­gram and mak­ing sure that that data­base was up to date, and then we would just blast away to that group. Today, it’s even more per­mis­sion based where most of our e-mail sub­scribers are com­ing from our web­site and blog traf­fic. I think we’re aver­ag­ing some­thing like 50 or 60 new sign ups a week, which is kind of ridicu­lous, but we’ve got a cou­ple of blog pieces out there that are work­ing hard for us, and real­ly help­ing build that list. The main things that we’re look­ing for are also what the real e-mail nerds will call List Hygiene, which is just mak­ing sure that when we’re send­ing an e-mail out to thou­sands of peo­ple, that those thou­sands are still receiv­ing that e-mail and they’re open­ing it.

If we have some­one who goes mul­ti­ple sends with­out even an open, we’ll just go ahead and take them off the list because it’s not doing any­thing for our send­ing scores to have peo­ple who are not even open­ing the e-mail. If we know they’re going to delete a cou­ple in a row, then we’ll just go ahead and take them off the list.

David Lecours: Just to clar­i­fy, when Josh says it’s “ridicu­lous” that they get 50 or 60 a week, I think he means it’s ridicu­lous­ly great. Right?

Josh Miles: Yes. Ridicu­lous­ly great.

David Lecours: Some­times we’re not sure with Josh’s Indi­anapo­lis ver­nac­u­lar. Just want to clar­i­fy for our lis­ten­ers.

Josh Miles: When I say ridicu­lous, I mean good. It’s been, I think, suc­cess­ful beyond what I expect­ed it to be. David and I were talk­ing a lit­tle bit before we hit record here, about we’ve got a cou­ple of blog posts that are now out­per­form­ing our home­page. The home­page is actu­al­ly the 4th or 5th most pop­u­lar page on our site, which means we’re get­ting a lot of organ­ic traf­fic. That organ­ic traf­fic, we could talk about that con­tent strat­e­gy lat­er, but that organ­ic traf­fic is real­ly what’s dri­ving new sub­scribers to our e-mail list. Ulti­mate­ly, peo­ple who want to hear from us, which is a pret­ty cool thing.

David Lecours: In short, build your list, we don’t pros­e­ly­tize, whether it’s organ­ic, organ­ic does seem to lend itself a lit­tle bet­ter to peo­ple sign­ing up, rais­ing their hand say­ing, “Yes, you can send me things.” In either case, you might want to include at the bot­tom of one of your e-mails, a request to be white list­ed, white list­ed mean­ing that you have gone into your e-mail service’s spam fil­ter to tell it, “Yes, this per­son who is send­ing me things is a viable source. It’s not spam.” It’s basi­cal­ly just mak­ing sure that the e-mail doesn’t go direct­ly to spam. Adding some­body to your address book is anoth­er way to whitelist. You want to make sure that your e-mail gets to your audi­ence.

Josh Miles: What about when you send out an e-mail to your audi­ence, David, or as you’re coach­ing your clients on this, do you do the stan­dard batch and blast where you’ve got, just every­body gets every­thing, or do you do more cus­tomized group­ings, or do you do any cus­tomiza­tion with­in the mes­sage itself so that at least mine says, “Hey, Josh,” or it has my company’s name some­where in the body? What lev­el of cus­tomiza­tion and seg­men­ta­tion are you look­ing at typ­i­cal­ly?

David Lecours: Right. What I do, and what I advise my clients to do are actu­al­ly dif­fer­ent. I’ll explain why. Because my firm is so spe­cial­ized, archi­tec­ture, engi­neer­ing and con­struc­tion, I do actu­al­ly have those lists seg­ment­ed just in case I want to send some­thing spe­cif­ic, but I don’t know, 99 times out of 100, the mes­sage has been rel­e­vant to all three of those audi­ences. I send all my e-mails to all my list. For my clients, because a lot of them work in so many dif­fer­ent ver­ti­cal mar­kets, they may be an archi­tec­ture firm that works in the com­mer­cial space, they may be work­ing in edu­ca­tion, they may be work­ing in uni­ver­si­ties, they may be work­ing in trans­porta­tion, all these dif­fer­ent sec­tors, their mes­sag­ing and their e-mails are prob­a­bly going to be spe­cif­ic to that par­tic­u­lar mar­ket. They want to actu­al­ly seg­ment their list, and only send the e-mail that’s rel­e­vant to that spe­cif­ic audi­ence.

The more rel­e­vant, the bet­ter. I did a lit­tle A/B test­ing with this where I sent out, and one of my sub­ject lines includ­ed the term, “A/E/C Firm,” and one of the sub­ject lines includ­ed “Engi­neer­ing Firm.” It was ever more spe­cif­ic. The results of the “Engi­neer­ing Firm” were sev­er­al per­cent­age points high­er than just the more gener­ic “A/E/C Firm.” Point is, be spe­cif­ic and send your list to a spe­cif­ic audi­ence.

Josh Miles: Yeah, and I think we’re prob­a­bly sim­i­lar to that. Real­ly, the only seg­men­ta­tion that we use reg­u­lar­ly with­in our agency and what we send out to our prospects is that my busi­ness part­ner and I each have our own lists that come through. If it’s some­thing he’s writ­ten, it’ll by default sign you up for his list, and then we give folks the oppor­tu­ni­ty to also sign up for mine. Because we do a very per­son­al touch on our e-mails. As we talked a lit­tle bit last time, we try to make them sound like they’re real­ly writ­ten for one per­son, and just com­ing per­son­al­ly from me or from Daniel. The fla­vor that you’re going to get between the two, as you’d expect when you’re get­ting e-mails from two total­ly dif­fer­ent peo­ple, they sound dif­fer­ent, they read dif­fer­ent­ly. That’s kind of the chief seg­men­ta­tion, but then we also break it down for, we’ve got one group that’s called our High­ly Engaged Group. This is like if we send it, they are going to open it, and they’re prob­a­bly going to click on it. That always pads our stats a bit if we send out to that group.

Then, there are kind of the larg­er lists or the com­bined lists, which are more of the announce­ment kind of e-mails. Those are things that are not just me mus­ing about some­thing, but some­thing that’s more appro­pri­ate to send to the whole group. Cer­tain­ly, I agree with the idea of more seg­men­ta­tion is prob­a­bly bet­ter, espe­cial­ly if you serve mul­ti­ple ver­ti­cals and have maybe dif­fer­ent fla­vor you might want to present your brand to each of those seg­ments.

David Lecours: Yeah, you said some­thing inter­est­ing when you men­tioned this high­ly engaged group. How do you know that they’re high­ly engaged, and then what do you do about that in order to repur­pose that high­ly engaged group?

Josh Miles: Yeah, that’s a good ques­tion. I think our full list is some­where around 10,000 peo­ple. Our engaged list, the folks who would typ­i­cal­ly open an e-mail is about 4,000 com­bined, and then I think between Daniel and I, we each have some­where between 750 to 1,000 a piece who we would con­sid­er are high­ly engaged, which is those are the ones that are most like­ly to open and like­ly to click as well. We’re look­ing at the stats that our e-mail ser­vice provider pro­vides on a per e-mail basis, and we just try to go in there and update as we can and make sure that we’re keep­ing things real­ly tidy, and that we’re not send­ing two e-mail address­es where some­body maybe switched jobs. This might be what’s called a hard­bound, so the e-mail doesn’t go through any­more, or a soft­bound, so some­thing where maybe they just got a delay or some­thing.

Just try­ing to keep real­ly tidy records and mak­ing sure that we know who’s get­ting what. If it’s some­thing that we feel like just the choir is going to be inter­est­ed in, we make sure we’re not send­ing that to the whole com­mu­ni­ty.

David Lecours: Yeah, and I think any good e-mail ser­vice provider will give you met­rics and let you know who opened your e-mail. Then, you can cre­ate a new list from the last cam­paign. Let’s say 300 out of 1,000 opened your e-mail, you can cre­ate this new list, and I would call those, “Engaged View­ers.” One of the ben­e­fits of work­ing with, or using an e-mail ser­vice provider rather than try­ing to run your e-mail cam­paign straight from your e-mail, which would be a night­mare.

Josh Miles: Yeah. I think it’s good, too, to have a gen­er­al idea of what your typ­i­cal open stats look like. From an e-mail mar­ket­ing response stand­point, you’re obvi­ous­ly look­ing for high­er per­cent­age. You’re sel­dom ever going to have an e-mail where 100% of peo­ple are open­ing the e-mail, but as David and I talked a lit­tle bit ear­li­er, some­times those stats may be kind of worst-case sce­nario. If the track­ing pix­el doesn’t fire or some­thing, you may actu­al­ly be get­ting more opens that what you’re show­ing, but we know that our lists are going to get any­where between high teens to low 40’s in per­cent of open rates, so a 40% open rate is real­ly fan­tas­tic, and the high teens is still pret­ty strong. I think you can see real­ly lousy e-mails, might be below 10%.

Each time you send one, if you get dif­fer­ent num­bers, that’s actu­al­ly a help­ful thing. You start to get some feed­back from your own audi­ence. Not just indus­try list, not just trends, not just what some­body else is doing, but only your list is your list. Your list may behave a lit­tle bit dif­fer­ent­ly than oth­ers. It’s good to try things like play­ful head­lines in the sub­ject ver­sus some­thing that’s real­ly straight­for­ward, and see which things start to per­form bet­ter.

David Lecours: Absolute­ly. Yeah, I think our egos can get caught up in want­i­ng to have every­body open our e-mail and read it, and it’s just not real­is­tic. Like you said, your list is your list. I think the key is with this open rates, and any mea­sure­ment, it’s look­ing for dif­fer­ences between one cam­paign to the next, and what can you learn from that, rather than play­ing the com­par­i­son game ver­sus indus­try aver­age. See­ing what type of con­tent is res­onat­ing most, and obvi­ous­ly serv­ing up some more of that, or think­ing about is it a poor real­ly writ­ten head­line or sub­ject line that is ham­per­ing that par­tic­u­lar post, that isn’t … Just to throw out some num­bers for you guys, Mar­ket­ing­Sh­er­pa, a dig­i­tal mar­ket­ing resource says any­thing about 20% is a good open rate. MailChimp says 15.5% is the indus­try aver­age for the audi­ence that my firm is try­ing to hit. The Archi­tec­ture, Engi­neer­ing, Con­struc­tion. Those are just some basics that give me a sense of where we are.

That’s one thing, is open rates. You want to talk a lit­tle bit about click-thru rates?

Josh Miles: Yeah, we could talk about that too. I think when we talk about click-thrus, it sort of implies that you have some­thing with­in the e-mail that you want some­thing to click on.

David Lecours: Yeah, that’s a great point.

Josh Miles: I mean, there are so many e-mails that I look at that are … Some­times this is the case, that it’s real­ly just you want to share a mes­sage and there’s not real­ly any­thing that you need to do. It’s just our inter­net ser­vice provider at the office will send us a mes­sage that says, “We just want you to know that we’ve got this reg­u­lar main­te­nance thing going on, and it’s going to hap­pen at 4AM tonight, and there are no expect­ed out­ages for your area. If you have ques­tions, give us a call.” There’s noth­ing to click on ever in those e-mails, so I bet their click-thru rate is pret­ty hor­ri­ble. The goal was not to have a click-thru, it’s just to share that mes­sage, but it’s some­thing to think about if you want some­one to click on some­thing, we always encour­age giv­ing them a cou­ple dif­fer­ent oppor­tu­ni­ties whether it’s hyper­link with­in the para­graph, or you men­tion the words of the thing that you want them to do, or even fol­low­ing up that para­graph with a but­ton where it’s a real­ly obvi­ous, big, shiny but­ton that has words on it that say, kind of com­plete the sen­tence of what it is you want some­body to do like down­load the white paper or get the goods, or some­thing like that, or the but­ton name is some­thing more than just sub­mit.

David Lecours: Right.

Josh Miles: I always like hav­ing some­thing visu­al to help peo­ple want to click thru. As I shared in the last episode, we’ve always seen not only but­tons, but also like faces and inter­est­ing images get lots of clicks as well. How about you?

David Lecours: Pic­ture of peo­ple seem to real­ly do well. I sent out an e-mail recent­ly announc­ing this pod­cast, and it had our pic­tures on it. It was one of the high­est open rates and click-thrus that I’ve had in a long time. I guess peo­ple like look­ing at us. I don’t know if they like hear­ing us, but they liked our pic­ture. That’s some­thing.

Josh Miles: Lit­tle did we know, it was like an aggres­sive click in the face. It’s like, “Get that guy out of here.”

David Lecours: Yeah, but I think this click-thru thing can be depress­ing. You see like an aver­age click-thru of 6%, and you go like, “Oh man, that’s all?” They may open the thing and they don’t click on it, but like you men­tioned, it may be because they got as much as they need­ed from your e-mail and open­ing it was enough. I wouldn’t get too hung up on those num­bers. I think you should keep track of them and see what’s trend­ing just for your own learn­ing curb. The oth­er thing I wouldn’t get too hung up on is unsub­scribes. I would say we send out about 1500 per mes­sage, we get of like 10 to 12 on aver­age unsub­scribes each time. I have to admit, I look at those and see who’s unsub­scrib­ing and I track them down and call them. No I don’t. I don’t call them.

Josh Miles: Grab them by the lapels.

David Lecours: We all unsub­scribe from lists. Some­times they give you a rea­son why and some­times they don’t.

Josh Miles: I think the rea­son in my mind, more often than not, is just they get too much e-mail. I think that’s also kind of code for “I’m not get­ting enough val­ue out of all the e-mail that I have to deal with dur­ing the day. It’s just anoth­er reminder of how impor­tant it is to send out valu­able mes­sages that are not so “we” or “us” focused.

David Lecours: Yeah, and I think that goes back to what we talked about in the last episode, was that with great pow­er comes great respon­si­bil­i­ty. That this medi­um is free and it’s easy, and as a result, we get lumped in with all the oth­er e-mails. There’s this after­glow or after­taste of some­body get­ting an e-mail from you, it already has, “Okay, now what? Anoth­er e-mail.” Your e-mails have got to be real­ly com­pelling and inter­est­ing to cut through that haze, or that sort of maybe bad taste that some­body has about e-mail in gen­er­al. Let your e-mail be this shin­ing bea­con of hope and inspi­ra­tion, and whim, and whim­sy, so that it does stand out against all the oth­er stuff that peo­ple are get­ting.

Josh Miles: Speak­ing of that a lit­tle bit, do you think it mat­ters when you send the e-mail out?

David Lecours: Yeah. This is the gold­en ques­tion. If I’m ever speak­ing at a con­fer­ence peo­ple ask, “what day of the week and what time do I need to send my e-mail?” In most cas­es, I can’t answer that for you, but your data prob­a­bly can. Look at and track these things, and see what is work­ing best for you, which is why you need to look at the met­rics. I typ­i­cal­ly don’t send things on Mon­days because I feel like peo­ple are inun­dat­ed, they’re just get­ting their week start­ed. By the same token, I don’t send things on Fri­days because I feel like peo­ple have checked out. I found Tues­days and Wednes­days, mid day works, the num­bers sup­port it. It has been work­ing well, but also maybe some­body catch­es some­thing right before their lunch break and I’m hop­ing that they’re going to read it. This assumes of course they’re on my own time­zone. Yeah, that’s been worked well for me.

By the same token, if every­body has the same sort of think­ing and everybody’s send­ing their e-mails at the same time, your e-mail is going to fall into a whole batch of stuff. It’s a lit­tle bit of cat and mouse. Try­ing to fig­ure out when you’ll stand out, and then also when you’re audi­ence is more tre­cep­tive to receiv­ing emails. Any tips you have for that, Josh?

Josh Miles: Yeah, I feel like that first thing Tues­day or right before lunch on Tues­days is a stat that I’ve heard quite a lot. We’ve exper­i­ment­ed with that. I think it’s cool that, and maybe more than just MailChimp offers this, but I just saw it in MailChip recent­ly that they offer this, I fig­ured they call it Time Machine or some­thing, but basi­cal­ly you can set it for 9AM and then you can tell it to also send to 9AM east coast, cen­tral, pacif­ic, so you can have it send with­in your giv­en time­zone at the same time. That’s kind of nice too, but I often feel like, “Well, I don’t want to send it to the west coast at 2 in the morn­ing. The last thing I want is for some­body to be awok­en by an e-mail from MilesH­ern­don. It’s cool that you can bal­ance that out with that kind of sender.

I think you’re total­ly right, we all hear as mar­keters that first thing on Tues­day or 11AM on Wednes­day is the best time to send, then you notice … I lit­er­al­ly do notice how many e-mails on Tues­day and Wednes­day I get at 11AM. It’s like right before I start to go to lunch, and I just hear the ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, and they all show up at once. I’m like, “What is going on?” I think, again, test it out with your audi­ence. I even heard that occa­sion­al­ly a week­end send can get a real­ly great open rate, because in the right indus­try, peo­ple are kind of relaxed and they’re in that hang out and just play­ing on their phone, and maybe they’re more like­ly to open that e-mail when they’re in a dif­fer­ent mind­set. Some­thing else to exper­i­ment with.

David Lecours: Yeah, I think the key here is this exper­i­ment and track, and mea­sure, and then that’ll give you the answer. Josh, what about fre­quen­cy? We talked about time a day, but how many e-mails should you be send­ing to some­body?

Josh Miles: When we were doing these very con­ver­sa­tion­al e-mails from our firm, we were aim­ing for one per week, but I would send my list every oth­er week, and Daniel would send his list every oth­er week. Admit­ted­ly, there was only about 15% of over­lap. It felt like we were doing a week­ly e-mail, but in effect, it was real­ly prob­a­bly in every oth­er week. That was still a lot to keep up with, just to write that many try­ing to be thought­ful and keep­ing the fre­quen­cy and qual­i­ty up. I think even mov­ing to a month­ly e-mails is not a bad idea either. It’s all about what kind of con­tent cal­en­dar your firm can keep up with and how often you can com­mit to pub­lish­ing and ship­ping. What do you guys shoot for?

David Lecours: Yeah, I think safe to say go for qual­i­ty, not quan­ti­ty. I think it’s good to com­mit to it, an edi­to­r­i­al cal­en­dar where you’re going to pub­lish just to keep your­self on tar­get with some rig­or and some dis­ci­pline, but not sac­ri­fice qual­i­ty. If you just don’t have any­thing great, don’t put it out. I’ve been doing about once a month, and that feels right to me. Then just into it, if I don’t have spe­cif­ic met­rics to back that up, I just feel like if I’m get­ting stuff from oth­er peo­ple and it starts to get more fre­quent, and I start to tune out a lit­tle, this way, yeah I’d be will­ing to break that rule, of course, if there was some­thing real­ly inter­est­ing to send mid-month. Do you rec­om­mend doing any sort of test­ing before you send out an e-mail?

Josh Miles: Yeah, I feel like when we do e-mail, I end up send­ing myself a dozen or more tests before it final­ly goes live, because at first I’m like, “All right, nailed it, first try.” I look at that draft and I’m like, “Oh thank good­ness, I’m proof­ing this again.” I always like to proof it both from that desk­top view what it looks like in the brows­er and then also obvi­ous­ly look­ing at it on my phone, because so many peo­ple do that e-mail triage on their phone, and fig­ure out if they want to delete or keep some­thing at that point. Do you have any tips on test­ing as well?

David Lecours: Well, a good e-mail ser­vice provider will give you that view of what it would look like in a web brows­er on a desk­top, what it would look like on a tablet, what it would look like on a phone, I think that is impor­tant. I think it’s key to send it to your­self and also some­body else. We’re ter­ri­ble at proof­read­ing our own stuff, so send it to a trust­ed employ­ee or col­league or some­body just to make sure it reads right, the gram­mar is right, the spelling is right, and then, by all means, test all the links. Make sure that they’re not old and resid­ual links from the last e-mail you sent. Make sure they’re the right link to the right place. If you’re includ­ing links. It’s just embar­rass­ing. You don’t want to send that retroac­tive e-mail. “Sor­ry, I screwed up the first time.” In fact, I wouldn’t even do that. If you do that, just …

Josh Miles: Just let it die.

David Lecours: Yeah, let it go. Depend­ing on your lev­el of inter­est in test­ing, you can real­ly get seri­ous. The test­ing exam­ples Josh and I just gave are the free ones that come with your e-mail ser­vice provider. There are ser­vices out there, the one that is com­ing to mind is Sauce Labs, where you can real­ly get deep on what an e-mail is going to look like in all the dif­fer­ent e-mail clients, all the dif­fer­ent ways it might show up. It can run some tests about how effec­tive deliv­er­abil­i­ty can be. It just depends on whether you want to pay for that next lev­el. Per­son­al­ly, I haven’t felt the need to, but it’s nice to know that that kind of ser­vice is out there.

Josh Miles: Yeah. We’ve used anoth­er one called Lit­mus, too, which is one of the indus­try lead­ers in test­ing for deliv­er­abil­i­ty and all that good stuff.

David Lecours: Absolute­ly. That’s a good one. In fact, maybe Sauce Labs cre­ates Lit­mus. We’ll get back to you on that. Note: Josh is cor­rect, it is Lit­mus, not Sauce Labs.

Josh Miles: We’ll put those notes in the show notes. David, that seems like maybe a good point to wrap it up. Any­thing you want to add on the e-mail front?

David Lecours: Yeah, just know that there’s a lot of e-mail ser­vice providers out there. You prob­a­bly have your favorite. I’m used to MailChimp. I can’t say that one is bet­ter. Try a cou­ple, fig­ure out what’s the best plan for you. Yeah, we cov­ered when to send, we talked about seg­ment­ing your list, build­ing your list, and then of course mea­sur­ing. Mak­ing sure you know what’s work­ing for you and what’s not. Yeah, just in gen­er­al, I want to put it out to the audi­ence, we real­ly want to hear from you guys. We’ve done a cou­ple episodes just Josh and I, specif­i­cal­ly on this top­ic. What are the best prac­tices that are work­ing with you for e-mail mar­ket­ing? We’d love to … If there’s a real­ly great com­ment, we’ll pass it on to our read­ers. The way you get in touch with us is to go to www.psm.show, and scroll down to “con­tact us.”

Josh Miles: I love that even in the first few episodes here, we’ve already had sev­er­al lis­ten­ers fill­ing out that form and send­ing this ques­tions, and send­ing us ideas, and even pitch­ing us as to if we’d be inter­est­ed in inter­view­ing or inter­view­ing oth­er peo­ple that they’ve thought of. That’s exact­ly how we want you to use that form. Please, as David said, head over to psm.show and check out episodes and show notes there, as well as tell us what you think.

David Lecours: Yeah, so that brings us to the end of episode 105 of PSM show. If you’re lis­ten­ing via the PSM Show web­site, going over to iTunes, Stitch­er, or any favorite pod­cast play­er and sub­scribe. It’s a pain to try to seek this out and remem­ber how great it is. Just put your­self on a reg­u­lar drip so that it comes right in through your play­er and you can lis­ten to it. Even bet­ter, if you like this show, the best thing you can do is go to iTunes and give us a rat­ing. That’s going to help boost us in the rank­ings, and get this out to your col­leagues who can ben­e­fit from. Absolute­ly, as we men­tioned, if you have ques­tions or com­ments, write to us via psm.show. That’s it from this episode of www.psm.show. From Josh Miles and myself, David Lecours, cheers for now.

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